1 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,400 Isn't the yellow wonderful? I could lick it up. 2 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,760 Wonderful. 3 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:22,560 Nice. 4 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,720 It was extremely hard to take. 5 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:35,440 HENRIK HANSTEIN AUCTIONEER 6 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,400 I was damn angry at Mr. Beltracchi. 7 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,960 I wasn't happy with the Cologne verdict. I would've preferred Sharia law. 8 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,200 JAMES ROUNDELL THE SOCIETY OF LONDON ART DEALERS 9 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,920 MR. andamp; MRS. OMMESLAGHE ART COLLECTORS 10 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,560 He should be sent to prison for 10, 15 years at least. 11 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,520 SOFIA KOMAROVA GALLERY MANAGER 12 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,880 Maybe a bit greedy? He made, as far as we know, several million Euros. 13 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,200 Maybe a bit greedy. 14 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,920 But definitely talented and sensitive. 15 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,800 NIKLAS MAAK ART CRITIC 16 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,360 It's a remarkable achievement, 17 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,000 that one man, not a large team, managed to outsmart 18 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,760 the most powerful and knowledgeable players in the international art world. 19 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,520 One after the other. 20 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,280 Like a bad cowboy film. 21 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,600 The cowboy mows down one sheriff after the next. 22 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:33,320 What happened in the Beltracchi case is rare. 23 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,760 RENÉ ALLONGE CHIEF POLICE DETECTIVE 24 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,720 It was a real challenge to provide evidence, 25 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,200 which speaks for the quality of his forgeries. 26 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,120 Max Ernst wouldn't have been amused. 27 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,120 He was the kind of guy... I never met him, 28 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,520 but from seeing him in photos and videos, 29 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,040 I don't think he would've found it funny. He would've said, 30 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:53,240 "Lock him up!" 31 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:55,360 Maybe. 32 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,960 BELTRACCHI - THE ART OF FORGERY 33 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,840 This is the Bec d'Aigle 34 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:18,960 in La Ciotat. 35 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:24,600 The Fauvists painted it a lot around the turn of the century. 36 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,480 I've painted it several times. 37 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,480 Friesz and Braque painted here together. 38 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,320 The same landscapes exist 39 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,680 by both painters. 40 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,560 They stood here, the two of them, 41 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:45,600 just imagine, 42 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,520 probably next to one another, 43 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,480 and painted it. 44 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,360 For me, Friesz was a greater Fauvist painter than Braque 45 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:02,400 and got pricier due to the rich colors. 46 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,280 They exude so much life. Sun, the south, it's all there. 47 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,040 Of course, the market also sets the prices. 48 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,160 That's for sure. 49 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,080 Here you can put yourself in their place. 50 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,640 1905: They had good times ahead of them. 51 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,080 I can see that now with hindsight. 52 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,720 I know that in 1905 they still have nine years until the war. 53 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,960 That's when the bad times started for them. 54 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,080 I've often wondered if I'd prefer to have lived at that time. 55 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,480 But knowing what was yet to come, the First and Second World Wars, 56 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,000 then I think, "No thanks." 57 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:59,440 That was totally new when they came here to paint this kind of picture. 58 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,440 No one had ever done it before. 59 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,800 Really fantastic. 60 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,960 I would've liked to do it too. 61 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,680 The edges are very clean. The canvas is a bit thin. 62 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,280 There's hardly any paint left except for the sky. 63 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:52,000 He really slapped on the white. You can see how it's cracked. 64 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:58,920 This is typical of early cracking. Technically, his work was very poor. 65 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,800 The undercoat probably had a lot of white lead, 66 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,640 which is why it tore early. 67 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:12,920 It's nice. 68 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,240 - Is it from Barcelona? - Yes, sir. 69 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,280 - From the 20s. - I think so. Or the early 30s. 70 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,160 It has a good stretcher frame. Nice and ashy. 71 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:38,120 - Is it expensive? - No, 50 Euros. 72 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,480 50 Euros? What a bargain. 73 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,520 - Here. - Thanks. 74 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:44,920 No, thank you. 75 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:47,240 Goodbye. 76 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,200 BELTRACCHI STUDIO (FRANCE) 77 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,880 Here's what we bought. 78 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,640 I'll put them on the table. 79 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,120 I'll get rid of the... 80 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,320 Max Ernst box. 81 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,840 Make some space. 82 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,240 Let's see what beauties we bought. 83 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,480 Why did we buy this? 84 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,760 Firstly, most importantly, look at the back. 85 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:58,520 How does it look? How old is the stretcher frame? 86 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,520 Then we have this wonderful 87 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,320 stamp from an art dealer 88 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:08,640 in Barcelona. 89 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,040 I googled it and found out they existed around 1920. 90 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,080 Then the keys. 91 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,840 All excellent. Not many holes. 92 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,240 Just one small one. That can be restored later. 93 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,360 And a bit dusty. 94 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,120 This was my home. 95 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,760 But I still wouldn't want to come back here. 96 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,880 And we wanted to sell it anyway, it's much too big. 97 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,480 We had a wonderful time here with our children and friends. 98 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,680 But it's too big for the two of us. 99 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:40,160 Every day I spend here, I feel lucky, 100 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,280 and it'll be terrible when we leave, 101 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,280 knowing we'll be in jail three days later. 102 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:55,680 Will you paint in prison? 103 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,800 Yes, of course. 104 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,880 Mostly drawings, I guess. 105 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,160 Of fellow inmates. 106 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,720 I also have a studio in Cologne. 107 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,360 I can work there, it always rains. 108 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,840 Here it's harder to work. 109 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:21,800 Great weather, nice parks, 110 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:24,920 nice area... 111 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,560 There are too many distractions. 112 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,480 They kept looking for this: titanium white. 113 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,000 Titanium white, completely empty. 114 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,160 We always thought you bought art, 115 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,000 and then sold it. 116 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,920 Like on the stock exchange: you sold it for a lot and bought it cheap. 117 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,320 The version I had 118 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,920 was that you invested in ocular prosthetics in the States. 119 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,840 - Nice, I never heard that one. - That's right, ocular prosthetics . 120 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:30,600 Jacques told me that. 121 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,120 I left as an artist and returned as... 122 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,640 ...as Robin Hood. 123 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,960 No, he returned as some kind of artistic genius. Definitely. 124 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,200 He returned as an extraordinary artist. 125 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,360 But in principle... 126 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,280 - It's not good. - It's not good, 127 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,000 but in reality, it is admirable. 128 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:04,720 Respect. 129 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,120 And in principle, too. 130 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,800 If I were the buyers, I wouldn't have said anything about the fakes. 131 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:15,880 I would've kept my art and waited. 132 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,040 - Sell it to the neighbors. - Exactly. 133 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,000 That's very French. 134 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,040 We're being forced to sell the house, but if we can, 135 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,480 we'll definitely come back. 136 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,400 By foot, in a camper, by boat, who knows? 137 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,000 Who knows? 138 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,600 I'm setting up a room for you in our basement. 139 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,000 In the basement? I can't live there. Too much like a prison. 140 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:04,360 BELTRACCHI STUDIO (GERMANY) 141 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,160 What'll that be? 142 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,160 HENRY KEAZOR ART HISTORIAN 143 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,800 We started that in France. In winter, when I was still allowed out. 144 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,520 That'll be the view down by La Ciotat. 145 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,640 On the Côte d'Azur, near Marseille. 146 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,040 That's Émile-Othon Friesz's view. 147 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,360 1907. And that's the same view 148 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,360 by Braque. 149 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:49,240 - How did you get into forging paintings? - You can sit down. Take a stool. 150 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,480 This thing is driving me crazy. 151 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,880 How did I get started? 152 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:01,960 Well, 153 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,120 I took my time, bit by bit. Not overnight. 154 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,360 I never studied painting, either. 155 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,440 Just illustration, graphic arts, photography, 156 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,640 all that stuff. 157 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:21,920 One question: 158 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,240 When does it become a forgery? 159 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,480 If I were to sign it, 160 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,400 then it'd be a forgery. 161 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,080 - The intention alone isn't enough? - No, of course not. 162 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:40,280 - Want to see? I'll sign it for you. - OK. - Blind! 163 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,600 - That's not necessary. - Without the original. 164 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,800 Without having the signature in front of me. From memory. 165 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,200 What's the guy's name again? Émile-Othon Friesz. 166 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:58,560 "É." 167 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,040 There's so little space. 168 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,480 This is something I enjoy doing. 169 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:49,040 There's nothing I couldn't paint. I think I could paint anything. 170 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,640 - You're pretty self-confident. - What do you mean? I can. It's my job. 171 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:56,720 It's not self-confidence. 172 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,720 Other painters might not make that claim. 173 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,920 - But I can. - Anything? 174 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,640 - Vermeer? - Him, too. 175 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,920 - Rembrandt? - Any of his. 176 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,640 - Leonardo? - Of course. He's not difficult. 177 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,720 - Not at all? - I don't find him difficult. Not at all. 178 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,840 It's not just the technical side. 179 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,600 You said you don't copy paintings, but get inside the painter's head. 180 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,600 - Sure. I could paint a new Leonardo. - New? 181 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,480 Yes, a new one. So what? 182 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,080 - Have you seen your work in a catalog? - Yes. 183 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,840 How did you feel when someone said it's definitely a Campendonk, 184 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,840 - and one of his best? - I thought, "He's right." 185 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,840 - But it's not a Campendonk. - Come on. 186 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:46,520 So what? 187 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,920 - It's still beautiful. - True. But not a Campendonk. 188 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:53,080 And the damage to art history and the author? 189 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,640 You and your "damage to art history"... 190 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,080 Yes. If I imagine that happening to me... 191 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,280 I write a catalog or article on a painting and someone says, 192 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,120 "That's a Beltracchi, not a Magritte," I'd be pretty annoyed. 193 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,520 - If you write a catalog of works... - Yes? 194 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,080 ...bring it to me first. 195 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,000 Have you faked Poussins or Carraccis? 196 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,640 I knew that was coming. 197 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,480 I've done drawings by old masters. 198 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,120 Drawings? 199 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,400 Sadly, in the art world, there are more people 200 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,960 who know how to make money 201 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,560 than there are works of art. 202 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,160 There's a surplus of financial interests. 203 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,280 And enormous sums of money whirling around. 204 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,320 The record prices for art are broken every year. 205 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,760 There's an inherent market logic 206 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,560 that penalizes depreciation, criticism and doubt, 207 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,320 and rewards appreciation, euphoria, and calling something a masterpiece. 208 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,080 If someone has a painting, and asks, "Could it be a Derain?" 209 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,040 the expert will say, 210 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:43,760 "It's a Derain." 211 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:49,440 The auctioneer's excited. He can earn millions from the masterpiece at auction. 212 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,760 The expert pockets a large commission. 213 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,040 The vendor makes money, 214 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,200 and the buyer is excited to see a Derain reappear on the market. 215 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:05,080 None of the people involved in this system want it to be a fake. 216 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,960 This is a Jawlensky. 217 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,480 Andy Warhol did portraits from Polaroids, 218 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,120 and this is a woman called Laura de Coppet, 219 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,120 who posed for this picture. 220 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,640 This one is a Renoir. 221 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,200 A portrait of a mistress, 222 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,720 the last portrait he did of one of his mistresses. 223 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,080 I especially like the Sam Francis. 224 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,400 - And you? - I like the Renoir. 225 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,160 - This is a... - Matisse. 226 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,040 They're Japanese objects. 227 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,720 I don't think they clash with the Matisse... 228 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,400 I think they fit well. 229 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,840 Now look at this. 230 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,440 That's where the Campendonk was. Now it's a Magritte. 231 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,240 Not as nice. 232 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,320 MR. andamp; MRS. OMMESLAGHE ART COLLECTORS 233 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:09,240 I lived in the country as a child and this cow symbolized the countryside for me. 234 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,440 So it reminded me of my childhood. 235 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,440 It was so colorful. 236 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,360 I really loved that painting. 237 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,840 When you saw that you'd given me a poisoned gift... 238 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,880 Not for the first time. 239 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:46,120 We'll cut that out. 240 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,640 Definitely. 241 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,960 My husband is drunk. 242 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,440 All that fake jewelry. 243 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,400 Stop it, Bernard. 244 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,880 Because it's a present 245 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:09,000 that you gave me yourself, and because you're a sentimental man, 246 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,480 what did you think? 247 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,280 Did you say to yourself: "That was a bad present"? 248 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,840 I was unlucky. 249 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,240 He thought: 250 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,320 "Bad luck for her." 251 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,760 No, I said, it always happens to the same people. 252 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,400 That's true. 253 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:35,400 However, I got a refund and I bought another present. 254 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,360 All this here is our joint property. 255 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,640 - We don't make lists or anything. - Yes. 256 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,800 But it was still my painting. 257 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,280 If I had kept the painting, I would've hung it in my bedroom 258 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,120 or walk-in closet. In a place 259 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,040 where there are photos and things like that. 260 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,640 Because it's no longer genuine. 261 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,320 - It's no longer a work of art. - It's a decorative object. 262 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,520 It's decoration. 263 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,480 It has some fibers on the back. 264 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,800 Synthetic fiber. 265 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,160 They're fluorescent, see? 266 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,960 Now the edges. 267 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,000 Also white lead. 268 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,840 It has a modern undercoat that reflects strongly. 269 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,840 Also excellent. 270 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,080 It's easy to see because the layers are so thin. 271 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,040 I'll start with this one. It's the most promising. 272 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,440 I can remove the paint, and work on it right away. 273 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:04,520 There. 274 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,760 Now the paint's off. 275 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,760 The painter I want to do here... 276 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,880 had a painting school in Paris: Marie Vassilieff. 277 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,840 I've never painted her work, but she was high on my list at one point. 278 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,080 I'd planned to do it. 279 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,320 It's from 1913. 280 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:36,240 She's a good one to do. There are big gaps in the cataloging of her work, 281 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,480 so she's a good candidate. 282 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,640 I'll paint a village view in this style. 283 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,360 The elements I have 284 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,360 on my canvas 285 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,440 after stripping the paint, these lines here... 286 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,200 I'll integrate them into the painting. 287 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,520 And the thicker paint that's still here 288 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,040 will also be integrated. 289 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:14,240 It'll disappear as I paint on it. It won't be conspicuous anymore. 290 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,840 Painting was never special to me. 291 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,520 In our family, it was like brushing your teeth. We all did it. 292 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,240 It didn't have the holiness, 293 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,040 like with many artists, 294 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,040 who use their paintings, their work or occupation, 295 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,200 and make a big deal of it. I never did that. 296 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,920 I just had fun painting. 297 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,520 I lived with it. It was everyday life. For my father too. 298 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,080 He never learned proper figurative drawing. 299 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,920 He learned to restore frescoes, 300 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,480 to paint fake marble, gilding, fake wood... 301 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,600 Everything you do in a church. 302 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,920 IN LOYAL COMRADESHIP 303 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,280 Whenever he made copies of old masters, 304 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,760 he always asked me, "Have a look at this." 305 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,200 He couldn't paint people. 306 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,360 The first time, that was 1965, 307 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,480 I was allowed to use his paints to copy a Picasso: 308 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,000 Mother and Child from the Blue Period. 309 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,840 But I didn't copy it, 310 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,840 instead I did a different version, because I didn't like it. It was too dismal. 311 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,240 I left out the cape, 312 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,120 and made it all a bit nicer. 313 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,840 Then he stopped painting for a while. 314 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,440 He just didn't feel like it anymore. 315 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,880 Because if he copied something, 316 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,280 he worked on it for weeks. 317 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,320 Meticulously. 318 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,960 That's why I still feel that 319 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,240 it's my father's fault I became a forger. 320 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,760 It all started with 321 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,720 selling at flea markets, 322 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,320 when I was still a student. I sold paintings there. 323 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,320 I noticed I had an eye for which paintings were good. 324 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,480 I bought them too, from all centuries. 325 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:36,720 I learned a lot, of course, 326 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,800 about the different styles and eras, 327 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,280 how, what and where things developed. 328 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,440 That's the best way to learn: 329 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,400 Find something, buy and restore it. I restored paintings too. 330 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,040 Then resold them. 331 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,480 I did that a few years. 332 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,960 It went well. It was exciting. 333 00:35:58,240 --> 00:35:59,960 Really exciting. 334 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:04,240 Then I realized 335 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:11,440 if I had a painting of a winter scene, the dealers, e.g. Drouot in Paris, said, 336 00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,400 "If there were characters in the picture, 337 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,320 and a bit of action, 338 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,640 you could get much more money for it, 339 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,320 and it'd be easier to sell." 340 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,680 The problem with that was that some of them 341 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,200 were painted so abysmally. 342 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,200 I could only add figures while keeping to the style. 343 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,120 The dealers came and said, "It's painted badly. 344 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,320 It's only worth 1,500." 345 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,560 So I got annoyed. 346 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,680 Then I thought to myself, "If that's the way it is... 347 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,080 why don't you paint them from scratch?" 348 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,840 I'll make the one breast 349 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,600 into a little tree. 350 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,320 And I'll make the second breast into a house. 351 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,160 Voilà. 352 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,400 Now she's gone. 353 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:46,960 It's really dark. 354 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:10,800 Now... 355 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,680 You have to stop at some point or you'll paint it to death. 356 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,840 Sometimes when you see your own painting in a museum you think, 357 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,960 "Damn, I'm in all these museums, 358 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,520 and no one knows it's mine." 359 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,240 Sure, anyone would think that, but it doesn't matter. 360 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:09,320 The panel is incredibly hot. 361 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,400 The surface reaches 400 degrees. 362 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,760 You have to be very careful. 363 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,920 They're the supports. 364 00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:25,160 Now we put the painting on them. 365 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,000 Normally, for an oil painting, when the paint's quite thick, 366 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,160 it needs six to twelve months to dry. 367 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,320 Then it's dry, old-looking, and the fluorescence is about right. 368 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,960 Then you have to rework it. You wait and see. 369 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,440 Done. 370 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,240 The open prison arrangement 371 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,440 gives us the chance to work together. 372 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,280 It's great that we're allowed to work together outside of prison. 373 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,440 My cell neighbor only sees his wife two or three times a week. 374 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:19,560 Because he works somewhere else. 375 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,920 But we work together. 376 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,880 We arrive at the studio together in the morning. 377 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:31,520 We can have breakfast and work together all day. It's a real privilege. 378 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,360 In the evening, 379 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,360 we separate. 380 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,760 From the highway exit where we separate, 381 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,120 it's all mechanical: down the highway, hand in papers at prison, 382 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,240 hand over phone, get key in reception, 383 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,160 into my cell. 384 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,320 Go to bed, switch off the light and the day's over. 385 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,680 Life is over. 386 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,520 If I'd known before 387 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,000 what was in store for me, I never would've done it. 388 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,640 Sure, if she'd never met me, 389 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,240 she never would've been put in jail. 390 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,400 But she also wouldn't have lived the last 20 years like she did. 391 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:28,400 Now I'm just... I'll just paint the tattoos a bit. 392 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,160 So that... 393 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:37,760 - Get a tattoo machine and tattoo me. - Forget it. I don't have time for that. 394 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,920 - Find time. - Imagine if I did that. 395 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,000 With my reputation, I'd have loads of customers. 396 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,960 But fewer forgeries. 397 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,320 I don't do forgeries anymore. 398 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,280 But... many people would want me to tattoo them. 399 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,000 Then art dealers would peel off their skin 400 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:02,200 after they die. 401 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,640 - To make cash? - Sure. 402 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,520 They'd stretch out the skin and sell it... 403 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,920 - I'd make a lampshade out of it. - ...as a painting. 404 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:18,160 There's a story from Modigliani, a French painter, who... 405 00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:21,720 tattooed someone's back. 406 00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:31,200 I'll put one of my falling angels on you. 407 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,920 I find the tombstones on your back a bit odd. 408 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:42,320 - If you die first, you'll get one too. - I won't die first. 409 00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:45,680 A fast and furious life is better than a long and boring one. 410 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,640 Long and furious is even better. 411 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,200 Like my life. 412 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,840 Now, wait. I think the position... Can you turn a bit? 413 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,680 A bit more. Exactly. 414 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,200 He told me about his job 415 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,520 after just three days, to tell the truth. 416 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,840 Of course, I was a bit shocked and astonished. 417 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,840 You rarely meet people who do that kind of thing, 418 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,520 but it is his occupation. 419 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,800 It's his way, his life and... 420 00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:30,760 not just a way to earn a living, but his way of life. 421 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,600 You could say it's his calling, if forgery can be termed a "calling". 422 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,840 It was so set in stone. I couldn't have changed anything. 423 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:47,240 To be honest, I didn't want to change or dissuade him. 424 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,400 I found what he did incredibly interesting. 425 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:51,840 Skilled. 426 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,600 And sometimes, I know I shouldn't say this: funny. 427 00:43:57,720 --> 00:43:59,800 It was also fun 428 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,040 to follow the whole story and see some of the results. 429 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,760 To finally be with someone 430 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,560 who didn't recognize the boundaries 431 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:33,920 people had built around me. 432 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,960 He saw no reason to accept any boundaries, he still doesn't and never will. 433 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:55,200 Show me your picture. 434 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,960 Time to take it out. 435 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,760 Here's the beauty, see it? 436 00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:58,920 Now... 437 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:01,720 Firstly... 438 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,360 The bottom edge of the canvas frame... 439 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:18,840 The dust. 440 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,400 The flakes of dust. 441 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,840 Now I stuff them down deep. 442 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,360 In the old paintings, if you look from the front, 443 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,600 you can feel lumps if you touch it. 444 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,800 You can feel some kind of dirt, where the dust has collected. 445 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,120 Now we have the original 446 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,160 Barcelona dirt from 1915. 447 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,240 Fantastic. 448 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,240 Now the painting's finished. 449 00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:08,280 Apart from varnishing. 450 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,040 Done. 451 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,640 It has to dry. 452 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,920 Now it's smoother. Wonderful. 453 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,160 It's good now. But it's still wet. 454 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,960 It's better now. The canvas doesn't have the bulges anymore 455 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,000 that come from the drying. 456 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,920 It doesn't smell of paint. Not at all. Nor of the oven. 457 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:06,080 Normally now you'd have to... If you wanted to do it perfectly, 458 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,320 you'd have to pack it in a big box, 459 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,360 burn a few hundred cigarettes, 460 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,200 and let the fumes go into the box. 461 00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:21,560 Or hang it up in a bar for half a year. 462 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,640 Back when you could still smoke in bars. 463 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,280 Then you'd have the right smell. 464 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,560 Paintings smell of the room they were hanging in. 465 00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:38,280 I sometimes imagined I could tell from the smell 466 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,400 whether a painting had been hanging in Belgium, Germany or wherever. 467 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,000 They just smell different. 468 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,000 I've never sold a painting myself. 469 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:48,560 Not personally. 470 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,320 I found it very difficult at first 471 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,920 to go to customers and experts. 472 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,200 There were times... 473 00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:09,760 when I couldn't deliver a painting. 474 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,080 I just couldn't do it. 475 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,760 I lost my nerve and tried somehow 476 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,400 to let it disappear. 477 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,480 But after a while, when you've done it a few times, 478 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:31,840 you notice how the experts and dealers take it for granted 479 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,080 when they accept a painting, 480 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,160 and it gets a lot easier. 481 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,840 I'd even say: 482 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:47,000 it's easier to sell a painting for half a million 483 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,240 - than it is for ten thousand. - Why? 484 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,680 Then no one thinks it's fake anymore. 485 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,760 If goods are in demand, they should also be produced, 486 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,240 so trade can take place. 487 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:06,480 I'm not saying that dealers expect you to produce forgeries for them, 488 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,160 but they're very happy to find anything that can be sold. 489 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,600 We have to put the hooks in. 490 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,680 - Put that in the frame. - Does it fit? 491 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,720 There are two possibilities: 492 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,440 The first 493 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,960 would be to paint a lost painting. 494 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,280 The second would be an imaginary gap in the artist's work, 495 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,800 a gap you just imagine is there. 496 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,920 Of course, we did both options. 497 00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,640 So you need a painting which isn't in the catalog of works, 498 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,760 but nonetheless appears in literature. 499 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,880 And no one knows where it is. 500 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,000 Nor what it looked like. 501 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,200 Because it's not in the catalog of work. 502 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,760 So all you really need 503 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,360 is a good story, 504 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,080 so every art historian or expert who deals in such matters 505 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,080 can research it. 506 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,200 We always left them traces so they could find stuff out on their own. 507 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:27,520 It's disgusting. 508 00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:30,680 The idea came from my husband. 509 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,520 When we met, my grandfather had just died, 510 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,320 Werner Jägers. And after he died, 511 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:43,560 and we couldn't really offend or hurt him, 512 00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,960 we invented this fairytale about him being an art collector. 513 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,400 But everything else we said about him was the truth. 514 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,480 The silk wallpaper was more difficult. 515 00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:01,680 Now take it from both sides, and run your hands along it. 516 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,000 He did have some paintings, but they were more like... 517 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,880 19th-century decorative art. 518 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,760 Not valuable paintings, but he was interested in art and paintings. 519 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:16,720 Finished. 520 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,880 Fantastic collection. 521 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:24,520 Really. 522 00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,360 Five million, 523 00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,320 5.5 million, 524 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:30,880 one million, 525 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,000 1.7 million, I think, or 1.5 million. 526 00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:36,720 Not bad, right? 527 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,920 Mr. Jägers, whom they made up, existed, but not as an art collector. 528 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,080 NIKLAS MAAK ART CRITIC 529 00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:53,320 He lived in the Rhineland, which has a very strong network, 530 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,800 where it would be almost impossible for a collector of that scale 531 00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,040 to live without anyone at all knowing anything about him. 532 00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:07,280 Seeing as Mr. Jägers really did exist, not as an art collector, but as a person, 533 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,520 someone could've researched who he actually was. Just out of curiosity. 534 00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,720 Any art enthusiast would want to know everything about him. 535 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,240 In auction catalogs, 536 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:21,760 at Christie's or Sotheby's, 537 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,640 you see old photographs. 538 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,000 "In 19-whatever, at this collector's..." 539 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,200 So I thought, we can do that too. 540 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:35,960 Don't be so... 541 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:40,920 - Did you put on make-up? - No. 542 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,040 - No? - Why would I? 543 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,040 - Look at me. - They didn't wear make-up back then. 544 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,600 - How does it work? - A little hook. 545 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,080 Look. How does this work? 546 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,680 - Some technician you are. - I'm totally unskilled. 547 00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,280 - You click this, and push... - Oh, I didn't know that. 548 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,040 How? 549 00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:12,840 Looks strange. 550 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:17,480 - Like this? - That's OK. 551 00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:19,800 I'll take the camera first. 552 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,160 There. I'll do the same one again. 553 00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,240 Then I'll come over, 554 00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,840 and take a photo from the front. 555 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,200 Sit facing the front more. 556 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,560 - Like this? - We did two photo walls. 557 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,720 One photo just with my paintings hanging, and the other 558 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,040 was an exhibition 559 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:53,320 with one of my paintings hanging between the others. 560 00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:56,800 It was very nice, just the Léger. 561 00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,400 I'm still proud of it. It was a great stunt. 562 00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,880 They never really found out. 563 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:06,880 Even the state police. 564 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,640 They've given up hope on that photo. 565 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,200 They don't know where it could've come from. 566 00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:16,840 Now one from here. 567 00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:20,920 Hands like this? Or down? 568 00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,680 Not so tense. A bit more relaxed. 569 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,720 And one, two, three... 570 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,960 There's a magical moment in literature 571 00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,800 when you're reading and forget it's fiction. 572 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,840 Like a kid hearing a fairytale: He's there in that forest. 573 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,880 It's not Brothers Grimm, but him with the big bad wolf. 574 00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,480 That's what Beltracchi did. He told them a story and... 575 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,360 everyone who heard it wanted it to be true. 576 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,720 They were spellbound by this story of Uncle Jägers. 577 00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,880 I met Werner Spies in Sète. 578 00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:07,280 I reserved a room for Werner Spies at Grand Hotel in Sète. 579 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:14,520 I collected him in the morning from the hotel and we drove to the domain. 580 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,160 Werner Spies isn't just a Max Ernst expert. 581 00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,240 He's also responsible for Picasso. 582 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:52,840 I wasn't exactly scared of him, 583 00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,040 but as an expert, he really... 584 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,080 commands enormous respect. 585 01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,240 I was dying to know: 586 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,440 Can we really fool him? 587 01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:13,880 It was incredibly exciting. 588 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,840 The desire to experience that and see what happened, was huge. 589 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,280 Stronger than the fear. 590 01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,520 It's always like the first day of school. 591 01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:31,280 Or when you haven't done your homework. Everyone has felt that: the hot ears, 592 01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,760 your heart beating, moist hands, and trying to stay cool, 593 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,000 so the teacher doesn't realize. 594 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:43,480 But he had already seen the scientific assessment. 595 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:49,440 Facing that situation, you ask yourself, "How will he react?" 596 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:54,040 Maybe he'll immediately say, 597 01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:56,440 "Impossible," 598 01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,560 "Forget it," or "I won't accept that." 599 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,680 Or he'd get all upset, you never know. 600 01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,680 Then he looked at the painting. 601 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,560 It was hanging over there. 602 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,280 And we sat here for an hour or an hour and a half, 603 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,840 talking about the painting, about Max Ernst, 604 01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:23,520 about art in general. He looked at all the art in the house. 605 01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:28,240 Then we went back to Sète, had some food... 606 01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,720 We had a last look at the view over Sète. 607 01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,280 Then he got on a train with his wife and went back to Paris. 608 01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,920 He gave it a certificate 609 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:44,160 and included the painting in the catalog. That was it. 610 01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:50,600 THE ILLUSTRATED WORK IS TO BE ENTERED 611 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:55,040 INTO THE CATALOG OF WORKS FOR WHICH I AM RESPONSIBLE 612 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,000 WERNER SPIES 613 01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,720 The role of Werner Spies is a tragic one. 614 01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,720 He made serious procedural errors. 615 01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,640 He was deceived in several cases, 616 01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,600 didn't recognize the forgeries. 617 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:46,000 He received huge commissions, 618 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,520 all of which were deposited in offshore accounts. 619 01:02:56,320 --> 01:03:00,520 He didn't reveal this important information at the hearing. 620 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:04,160 RENÉ ALLONGE CHIEF POLICE DETECTIVE 621 01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:08,840 Instead, later on the forgeries that were back in circulation 622 01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:14,520 were requested for exhibitions in Stockholm and Humlebaek in Denmark. 623 01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:20,200 That's where I say: He really shouldn't have done that. 624 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,240 Fantastic. 625 01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,760 Isn't it great? The stairs really do it. 626 01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,200 Say what you like, it's just great. 627 01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:01,680 Right, OK. 628 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:03,880 Great. 629 01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:09,560 - Got it? - Yeah. 630 01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:15,040 Go on. 631 01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:27,640 - Come on. - I am. 632 01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,560 So... now on its side. 633 01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:40,840 - What's on the floor? - Shit. 634 01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:43,960 Done. Great. 635 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:47,040 Good. 636 01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:55,520 I'll do a little dove here. 637 01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:58,040 Like he always did. 638 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:08,480 Sweetie... 639 01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,480 Now we'll nail it on the wall, 640 01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:14,680 so that it... 641 01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:17,360 doesn't collect dust overnight. 642 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,680 It's going to be a fantastic painting. 643 01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:23,760 The best Max Ernst I've ever painted. 644 01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:28,560 I say that every time. 645 01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:36,360 It looks crazy... 646 01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,640 You don't have to be a genius to do a painting like that. 647 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,000 - To have the idea? - The idea... 648 01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:52,280 To trace over a floorboard? Other people have thought of that. 649 01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:54,000 - Who? - No idea. 650 01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,000 I'm sure someone or other has. 651 01:05:57,400 --> 01:05:59,960 It's hardly groundbreaking. 652 01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:08,480 An idea doesn't make you a great painter. 653 01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:14,800 - So Max Ernst isn't a genius? - No, I don't think he is. 654 01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:51,680 Done. 655 01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,880 If Max Ernst was first, and he was... 656 01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:05,160 then I adapted it, maybe made it better than the original. 657 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:11,080 Maybe my forest is even more beautiful. Better, if you want to evaluate it. 658 01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,520 Because I am adding to his. 659 01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:27,080 I need to say something. I've always had 660 01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:32,880 a certain virginity complex 661 01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,880 about white canvases. 662 01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,280 When I sat in front of a white canvas 663 01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:42,640 to start something, to paint something, 664 01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:48,440 I found it almost impossible to put the first dab on the canvas. 665 01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:54,120 I had to find a way of overcoming it. And I found it... 666 01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:57,360 In 1925, 667 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,880 on a rainy day, alone in a guesthouse by the sea. 668 01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:08,000 I stared at the faded and worn-down wooden floorboards, 669 01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:13,280 and realized that the grains in the wood were moving. 670 01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:19,920 To strengthen the meditation, 671 01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,480 I took some tracings from the wood. 672 01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:28,080 I let pieces of paper fall on the floor at random 673 01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,920 and then rubbed over them with black pencil. 674 01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:37,600 I was surprised by the sudden increase in my visionary powers. 675 01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:47,960 JAMES ROUNDELL THE SOCIETY OF LONDON ART DEALERS 676 01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:42,720 A bit more there. 677 01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:06,360 Good. 678 01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:12,160 You know what's a pity? 679 01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,560 That I won't get five million for it. 680 01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:20,360 That's a real pity. 681 01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:02,960 We built a nice house. And another. 682 01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,600 Other people do that too. That's not megalomania. 683 01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:11,200 Just because I planted 1000 trees. 684 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:13,600 It was nice. 685 01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,440 We knew something was coming. 686 01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:03,000 We knew it 687 01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:04,880 for a year. 688 01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:35,480 Off with it. 689 01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,360 I was with them both in France at the time. 690 01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:10,920 FRANZISKA BELTRACCHI (DAUGHTER) 691 01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:14,640 I asked my dad whose paintings he was burning. 692 01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:17,920 He said they were his, but I didn't believe him. 693 01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:20,280 I just couldn't understand it. 694 01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:25,080 BELTRACCHI VILLA IN FREIBURG, GERMANY 695 01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:29,040 We knew nothing about it at first. 696 01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:31,440 We knew our dad was an artist, 697 01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:35,200 but we always had the impression he didn't work all that much. 698 01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:37,400 MANUEL SCHNEE (SON) 699 01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:42,200 He said he was an art dealer. He seemed to be doing well with it, 700 01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:44,480 if you saw how we lived. 701 01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:50,120 We'd always just see one painting that he was painting on the side. 702 01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:54,960 So we'd always think, "He's lazy, he doesn't do anything." 703 01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:09,440 I always ask myself, 704 01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:12,720 "How did we not realize?" 705 01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:17,400 I felt a bit stupid that I didn't realize the whole time. 706 01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:26,080 At first, you think, "What do we really know about our parents?" 707 01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,120 Here's the Lempertz catalog. 708 01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:43,560 With the painting with the red horses. 709 01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,520 That was the catalyst 710 01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:49,800 for the whole affair. 711 01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:51,960 Heinrich Campendonk, 712 01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:54,320 Red Picture with Horses. 713 01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:57,600 Or what's it called? 714 01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:00,640 Yes, Red Picture with Horses. 1914. 715 01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:03,480 Beautiful painting. 716 01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:07,040 It was considered the best Campendonk to date. 717 01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:12,920 Also the most expensive ever sold. It cost nearly three million Euros. 718 01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:17,320 It has the study on the back. 719 01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:21,440 Then there was the label 720 01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:23,960 from Flechtheim, 721 01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:28,000 which suddenly turned out not to be real anymore. 722 01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,400 But it existed for the last 20 years. 723 01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,440 Then it was in the auction 724 01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:38,480 in 2006. 725 01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:40,520 And that's when 726 01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:43,440 things slowly started to seethe. 727 01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:06,040 FLECHTHEIM COLLECTION 728 01:17:38,080 --> 01:17:41,360 The person who bought that painting 729 01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:43,600 was a private buyer, 730 01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:47,320 one of our gallery's most important clients. 731 01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:53,880 SOFIA KOMAROVA GALLERY MANAGER 732 01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:58,680 He called me the day after the purchase, on November 30, 2006, 733 01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:01,520 asking me to handle the transaction. 734 01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:05,480 That's when I first saw a photo of the painting. 735 01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:10,560 The painting itself I saw much later. 736 01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:16,520 First impressions: 737 01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:19,600 an extraordinary work. 738 01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,280 An extraordinary rarity, 739 01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:24,280 which combines 740 01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:28,040 the best of Campendonk. 741 01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:32,880 In the catalog, 742 01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:35,640 there was no illustration, 743 01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:38,720 no technical details. 744 01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:42,880 There was just a very long title, 745 01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,200 Red Picture with Horses. 746 01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:49,560 Nothing else. 747 01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:51,840 HENRIK HANSTEIN AUCTIONEER 748 01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:56,680 Shortly after, I met a museum director, who said, "Finally a superb Campendonk." 749 01:18:56,920 --> 01:18:59,640 I think this was his masterpiece. 750 01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:04,160 He didn't just fake paintings, he filled in the gaps in the literature. 751 01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:07,120 That's not necessarily a new trick. 752 01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:13,280 I contacted the Lempertz auction house 753 01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:17,200 to request a certificate of authenticity 754 01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:21,000 from a Campendonk specialist. 755 01:19:22,440 --> 01:19:23,840 We said, "Sure." 756 01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:28,400 Mrs. Beltracchi became very involved with the catalog editor 757 01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:32,360 who requested a laboratory investigation, which was carried out. 758 01:20:06,080 --> 01:20:11,520 With these paintings, these fakes, you can't smell anything at all. 759 01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:16,360 RENÉ ALLONGE CHIEF POLICE DETECTIVE 760 01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:19,760 We still don't know how many forgeries he really did, 761 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,600 and how many forgeries are in circulation. 762 01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:26,800 That's a secret he could reveal if he wanted to. 763 01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:31,840 But it makes him interesting and he takes advantage of that too. 764 01:20:37,440 --> 01:20:40,080 I did around 300 765 01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:43,160 paintings and drawings. 766 01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:48,240 Between 1970 and 2010. 767 01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:58,400 I could've done 2,000 and the market would've taken them. 768 01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:13,880 NICHOLAS EASTAUGH CONSERVATION SCIENTIST 769 01:21:38,480 --> 01:21:42,560 I wondered, where did that damn titanium white come from? 770 01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:57,080 I didn't mix the white for that painting myself. 771 01:21:57,320 --> 01:21:59,120 I just used a tube. 772 01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:01,360 I was just lazy. 773 01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:05,200 That painting being a fake... 774 01:22:05,440 --> 01:22:06,840 I can't believe it. 775 01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:12,000 The communication between Mr. Hanstein and Mr. and Mrs. Beltracchi 776 01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:14,280 started over a forgery. 777 01:22:14,680 --> 01:22:18,680 In 1995, 778 01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:23,360 the couple delivered a painting by Hans Purrmann. 779 01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:27,240 Then just before the sale, 780 01:22:27,480 --> 01:22:30,440 the expert, Mrs. Purrmann, protested, 781 01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,200 stating that the painting was a forgery. 782 01:22:34,440 --> 01:22:36,400 So Lempertz withdrew it. 783 01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:39,000 It was the first contact 784 01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:43,800 between Mr. Hanstein and the so-called collectors. 785 01:22:45,440 --> 01:22:51,240 We fell victim to a very smooth fraudster, like many of our colleagues. 786 01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:55,840 There's no need to mention that it really wasn't much fun. 787 01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,800 Behind every canvas, 788 01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:04,680 especially those from the early 20th century, 789 01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:07,200 there's a whole universe. 790 01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:11,440 What happened in Germany, in Europe, 791 01:23:12,280 --> 01:23:14,360 just before 1914? 792 01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:21,240 Painters like Campendonk anticipated the impending tragedy. 793 01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:28,360 It's not a nice painting of horses. 794 01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:31,480 There's tragedy behind it. 795 01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:36,320 It shows the painter's boldness 796 01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:39,200 as he anticipates what's ahead. 797 01:23:39,440 --> 01:23:43,280 To know the tragedy that's coming, and to still decide to paint. 798 01:23:45,680 --> 01:23:47,920 And then you discover 799 01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:51,560 there's nothing behind it. 800 01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:56,040 It's just painted in his style. 801 01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:58,200 There's no tragedy. 802 01:23:58,440 --> 01:24:01,640 No tears. No historical context 803 01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:06,320 inherent in each painting, 804 01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:09,520 especially in the early 20th century. 805 01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:36,680 Not in there. It'd be too heavy on the glass. Get a new one. 806 01:24:37,480 --> 01:24:42,000 We were going to eat in a restaurant. We were driving down the hill, 807 01:24:42,480 --> 01:24:45,200 when some police squads 808 01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:48,120 stopped us. 809 01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,400 They told us to get out and stand by the car. 810 01:24:51,640 --> 01:24:53,600 They had guns and dogs. 811 01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:58,440 Which was over-the-top. They know my father isn't dangerous. 812 01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:02,120 We stood out in the rain, 813 01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:05,840 next to the car, and the policeman said, 814 01:25:06,360 --> 01:25:10,440 "Do you have a license?" I said, "Yes." "OK, you drive the car home." 815 01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:13,200 So I drove the car to the garage. 816 01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:17,840 I was scared. Scared for my parents too. 817 01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:22,400 I didn't know when they'd be back. Tomorrow, in a week... 818 01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:24,280 a month, a year... 819 01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:26,600 I was just scared. 820 01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:37,920 I think it's fantastic, and it characterizes the house, 821 01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:43,720 that you can see in or out everywhere. It makes many people nervous. Not us. 822 01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:46,400 I hope someone buys it 823 01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:48,240 who understands that. 824 01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:50,760 It doesn't really matter. 825 01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:58,720 He can do what he wants, like build walls around it. 826 01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:02,120 Après moi le déluge. 827 01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:15,800 The material costs caused by Beltracchi, as far as we're concerned, 828 01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:20,560 will be limited, because, as part of the investigation, 829 01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:25,160 Mr. Beltracchi's real estate was seized in favor of our customers. 830 01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:28,160 It will be liquidated very soon, 831 01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:32,880 meaning Lempertz customers won't suffer any loss. 832 01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:48,240 It was very clear to me and my wife in recent years, 833 01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:52,800 that at some point things would go bad. We just felt it. 834 01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:57,320 It had to go wrong. 835 01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:00,480 We actually wanted to stop. I wanted to. 836 01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:06,080 I thought, "Two more paintings for another ten million wouldn't be bad." 837 01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:08,480 I still wanted to do those. 838 01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:13,200 I wanted to buy a palazzo in Venice. 839 01:27:14,440 --> 01:27:16,400 I was into that idea. 840 01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:20,560 I thought, "Just two more and then it's over." 841 01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:27,720 Then I swapped the palazzo for a cell. 842 01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:49,960 All of my letters. They're all mine. 843 01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:52,800 These are Wolfgang's. 844 01:27:56,120 --> 01:27:58,040 8,000 pages. 845 01:27:58,360 --> 01:28:01,240 We wrote every day. Every day. 846 01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:11,480 This one's nice. A prisoner gave me a heart-shaped candy. 847 01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:14,440 Which I then gave to my husband. 848 01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:21,480 My cell looked exactly like my husband's. 849 01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,480 It faced the same direction. He had the same daily routine. 850 01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:30,520 Different officers and male prisoners, but otherwise almost identical. 851 01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:39,360 Wolfgang is much stronger than me. 852 01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:41,920 Hopelessness doesn't exist for him. 853 01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:48,240 With his attitude to life, and his desire, his desire to put it all behind him, 854 01:28:48,480 --> 01:28:50,600 he carried me with him, 855 01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:54,800 otherwise I wouldn't have made it. I'm not that strong. 856 01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:59,560 We're currently working on a book. 857 01:28:59,960 --> 01:29:01,720 To tell our story. 858 01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:07,960 And regain our footing by doing what we can, 859 01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:14,240 and using that to move forward again. 860 01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:18,800 You can work creatively 861 01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:22,040 and also obey the law. 862 01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:39,240 - How are you? - Good, thanks. You? 863 01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:41,880 As you might expect. 864 01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:45,080 How often are you here? 865 01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:48,200 - Every day. - Every day? 866 01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:51,120 - It's still not pleasant. - Well, yes. 867 01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:54,040 As they indicate in the papers... 868 01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:56,200 HENRY KEAZOR ART HISTORIAN 869 01:29:56,440 --> 01:30:00,720 - Isn't it supposed to be a punishment? - Exactly. I feel really punished. 870 01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:03,400 What's this? 871 01:30:03,640 --> 01:30:06,800 That's one of mine, but it's not finished. 872 01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:09,840 - They're always unfinished. - Why's that? 873 01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:13,120 Because they get abandoned. 874 01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:16,320 - You're not scared to finish them? - No. 875 01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:20,000 It was like that when I was arrested. 876 01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:23,800 It wasn't finished yet. 877 01:30:26,240 --> 01:30:29,640 And it's related to the Inquisition, 878 01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:32,720 a subject I was working on at the time. 879 01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:37,000 - Is that a fallen angel? - Yes. - You like angels. 880 01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:39,520 - What do they mean... - Always did. 881 01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:45,400 I think it's because my father always took me to churches as a child. 882 01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:47,680 They resonated with you. 883 01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:50,680 What does an angel mean to you? 884 01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:54,760 Well, for me it's... 885 01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:56,560 An angel... 886 01:30:57,200 --> 01:31:01,480 is a bit of hope, a sign of hope, something like that. 887 01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:04,600 I'm not devoutly religious, but an angel 888 01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:07,000 symbolizes that for me. 889 01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:08,720 Hope. 890 01:31:09,800 --> 01:31:11,800 How far is it from completion? 891 01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:15,520 There's still a lot to do. I'll add a border. 892 01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:18,200 And here on the main part, 893 01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:22,120 there will be... What's it called? Confetti. 894 01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:24,840 It'll be partly gold... 895 01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:31,480 I think a large part of the public will want to see the forgeries. 896 01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:38,200 A so-called Ernst-Beltracchi, which is both an Ernst painting and a Beltracchi. 897 01:31:38,440 --> 01:31:43,280 So you have two famous names. There'll be a large market for that. 898 01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:49,720 The other question is what you would put on the market as Wolfgang Beltracchi. 899 01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:54,720 The bar is high. People will have high expectations. 900 01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:58,200 I'm not sure what you plan on putting out there. 901 01:31:58,440 --> 01:32:01,080 I think this is the safer option, 902 01:32:01,480 --> 01:32:06,200 because it's something people know and what they want. 903 01:32:06,440 --> 01:32:09,600 I'm curious to see how your other work is received. 904 01:32:09,840 --> 01:32:14,000 I don't know if you'll have the same success. 905 01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:17,680 They might say, 906 01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:21,200 "So that's what it looks like. I prefer the Ernst-Beltracchi." 907 01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:24,080 That's how I see it too. 908 01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:28,200 How much blood and tears went into that? 909 01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:30,800 - None at all. - None? 910 01:32:31,040 --> 01:32:34,080 No, I just have fun doing it. 911 01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:37,760 My passion is reserved for my wife and children. 912 01:32:38,160 --> 01:32:39,840 I'm more pragmatic. 913 01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:42,520 You have a distanced relationship to art? 914 01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:46,640 Yes. You get that way when you deal with it all the time. 915 01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:50,840 - With the art market or with art? - The market. 916 01:32:57,520 --> 01:33:01,120 I just want 20,000. Or 25,000. 917 01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:04,200 We'll see what happens. 918 01:33:05,480 --> 01:33:07,760 But not less. No way. 919 01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:11,920 It's a lot of work. 920 01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:46,600 It's not forgery-proof, but I don't mind. 921 01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:49,640 I've thought about that for a long time. 922 01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:54,120 Why should my paintings be forgery-proof? 923 01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:56,560 Let people forge them. 924 01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:04,920 I should be the last person to let that bother me, right?